Snuffy

The war was a mistake, but pulling out before a stable government is in power would be an even bigger mistake. Without a stable government, there could be a full-out civil war between the Suni muslims and Shia muslims. The result would probably be far more tragic than what we're seeing now.

After all that we've gone through, the last thing we need is more bloodshed and another Taliban-like government emerging in the area. Also, with Iran aspiring to be the next nuclear state, we need more stability in the region, not less.

Supporting the troops means giving moral support to the people who are willing to put their lives on the line to fix Bush's mess, prevent more deaths, and promote peace. A lot of those "red necks" probably have sons or daughters there right now. That's why you're hearing all that "rhetoric".

Please don't patronize me by telling me to "reflect on what you are saying" - I have and will continue to do so.

astralkid

"Without a stable government, there could be a full-out civil war between the Suni muslims and Shia muslims."

Are you kidding me? Do you even listen/ watch the news? The Sunnis and Shia daily target each other... Bombings of mosques, kidnappings of clerics from both sides, etc...

Because of the US invasion, the Sunnis lost power. Now they believe there is something kind of Byzantine power game between the Americans and Shia to undermine their very way of life. So, there is already a civil war between them AND what is more the Americans are also caught between it. So is now the Shia, Sunnis and Americans getting killed.

Educate yourself about the past. This is what happens when evil empires interfere between 2 people's living in the same country... Remember Hotel Rwanda? Yeah, it was Belgium’s fault. Don't know why? Educate yourself...

This bloodbath will not end until the US leaves. These 2 Arab clans will have to settle this among themselves, and they will once the US leaves...


"Please don't patronize me by telling me to "reflect on what you are saying" - I have and will continue to do so."


No, you clearly have not. You know nothing of what is exactly going in Iraq.

Furthermore, if what you say is true and are moved by the general well-being of the Iraqi people and want the US to stay there to make this a reality. Get your ass to the US consul in downtown and sign up for the US army. The same goes for you too MC ED

Everybodies_Daddy

Support our troops means precisely this:

Right now there are several thousand Canadian soldiers, and hundreds of thousands of American soldiers deployed to theatres of operations all over the world. These are fathers, mothers, brothers, sisters, human beings. They're not warmongers, nor are they mindless robots. They've put their lives on hold because at one point in lives they felt the need to serve a higher cause. They joined the military, and were told of a soldier's code, where they put in their best effort in every task assigned to them, and that they would only be used when necessary, to do what's right.

Regardless of the reasons that have got them to where they are right now, they are holding up their end of the bargain in places like Iraq, Afghanistan, Haiti, the Golan Heights, Bosnia, Indonesia and Darfur.

These people signed on the dotted line voluntarily, so that people who don't want to (like you, astralkid) don't have to. They're getting shot at, suicide bombed, grenaded, assaulted, spat on by some, thanked, hugged, and welcomed by others wherever they may serve. They're doing it because they're doing their duty. Just because you think that the US Government isn't holding up their end of the bargain is no reason to not appreciate the sacrifice these soldiers, sailors and air force weenies are making for you.

You said yourself that "a lot of young soldiers won't even have the opportunity to get to experience things like marriage/ having kids/ raising a family. Also, a lot of soldiers are dying and leaving families behind." Nobody in their right mind wants to go to war, they do it because it's their job, and because their country has asked them to.

Soldiers don't start wars, politicians do. Politicians don't fight wars, soldiers do. Remember that.

Just because you've heard a few stories, and read a few books, don't think that you have any clue whatsoever as to what's going on in Iraq and Afghanistan. You have no idea what it's like to leave your life behind, and go to a war-torn country because it's your job to do so. Try saying goodbye to your family, without knowing if you'll live to see them again. Try accepting getting shot at, or navigating through minefields as an every day occurence, and a normal risk of your job.

When I got home from Bosnia, every telephone pole between Trenton and Petawawa on our route back had a yellow ribbon tied around it. We stopped in two towns, where hundreds of people lined the streets waving Canadian flags, yelling "Thank you!", and bands were playing. These people did that every night for a month, welcoming back our troops from Bosnia and Afghanistan.

It was nice to know what we did was appreciated. At least by some, even if they're only dumb small town Ontario rednecks.

So, try walking a mile in a soldier's boots before professing to know everything.


An American soldier carries a civillian casualty to a medical station.


A letter from home.


Not a mindless robot.


Hearts & minds.

MCED

__________________
Dirty Little Secrets

Hot + Dirty

anabolic frolic

So how about that daycare debate?

Everybodies_Daddy

Subsidized daycare? I'm all for it. I think the money spent in providing good daycare and pay raises for daycare staff to make it a more appealing job will be saved in welfare payments... it's that little bit that's needed to help a lot of people make ends meet!

MCED

anabolic frolic

The problem I have for the liberal's plan is that it makes absolutely NO allowance for stay-at-home parents. Robin and I have no need for daycare at all, but it's like we're being penalized for that decision.

I don't understand why some government programs work in this all or nothing way. If you run your own business you're not elligable for EI for example, or if you're a woman and run your own business and get pregnant you get NO maternity benefits from the government at all.

Everybodies_Daddy

Go to a debate and ask the question.

MCED

mintjellie

when the liberals fought against free trade as her majestys opposition, it wasn't out of any sort of principles. it was political pragmatism. they had to do so in order to continue defining themselves in opposition to the progressive conservative majority.

most people don't realize this, but all throughout canadas history free trade was traditionally a liberal value and part of the platform of the liberal party. ever notice that the liberal party, despite opposing it when the conservatives were arguing in favour of it, never even talked about canning NAFTA? this is because the liberal party never was truly against free trade. they were just against the PC party being the one to enact it.

actually, our first free trade agreement, in the automotive maufacturing industry, was enacted by a liberal government half a century before NAFTA.

as for Harper re-opening the gay marriage debate, he knows that what hes saying is nothing more than a token gesture to his core supporters. political pragmatism once again. he knows that if a conservative government is elected it will more than likely be a minority, and knows that in reality he would have to accept defeat on that issue. he also knows that a vote on gay marriage isn't a vote of confidence. its not like it pertains to government finances or anything. so he knows that this is a defeat he can suck up. he also knows that several sitting conservative members of parliament would vote in favour of gay marriage anyways.

which leads me to my next point : DON'T ALLOW PARTY PLATFORMS TO INFLUENCE YOUR VOTE.

here in Canada, with out Parliamentary model of government, it is far more important to examine the personal stances of your local candidates than it is to examine the platform of the party they are representing. not every liberal candidate believes in every plank of the liberal platform, not every conservative candidate believes in every plank of the conservative platform, and so on for the ndp, bloc, greens, and so on.

don't pander to partisan politics. investigate every candidate in your riding, phone them or try to meet with them in person and ask them what their positions are on any issues you feel are of critical importance to your nation, and more importantly, your own riding. base your decision on who to cast your vote for on your discussions with them.

ryan
plurr

mintjellie

are you kidding me?

i've got news for you. it already is a civil war in iraq, and has been for a long time.

most of the news reports coming from iraq are outright lies. the millitary issues a press briefing to journalists safe in their hotels within the green zone, and the reporters forward whatever the army says to their publishers. there are almost no reporters in iraq who go out into the streets of baghdad to actually check the facts they are submitting. its nothing but propaganda journalism.

they don't leave their hotels because the state of civil conflict and disorder outside of the green zone is literally to dangerous for them. keep in mind, many of these journalists have wives and children at home. they don't want to risk their lives.

robert fisk, one of the only reporters in baghdad who goes out among the iraqi people today has stated that the current situation in iraq is far from okay. contrary to bush's public announcements saying that progress is being made towards peace and stability, iraq has in fact regressed to the point that its just as bad, if not worse off today, than it was under Saddam.

there are death squads roaming the streets of baghdad, and not all of them are made up of Sunni or Shi'ite millitants. The police, the baghdad dept. of the interior also have their own death squads out in the streets, summarily executing those suspected of holding the wrong political allegiance. the united states has walked into something it simply cannot handle or contain. It is becoming increasingly difficult to tell who is who in Iraq, as the battlelines aren't as religiously based as the US government claims.

For example, Sunni and Shi'ite insurgents are fighting together against the US and its ally, the current iraqi government. However, its also reported by former Interim President Allawi that some Shi'ite millitias are actually infiltrating or allying with the iraqi security forces to take revenge on the Sunni people, who were favoured during Saddams regime. Mr. Allawi also reports that the iraqi government has been starving and torturing detainees, and that people are disappearing in the middle of the night just like Saddams regime.

this isn't a new vietnam. i think that when all is said and done, and the US withdraws in failure, this will be remembered as something far worse. this is only the beginning.

mintjellie

the argument that soldiers must dispatch their orders regardless of ethical or political concerns doesn't wash with me.

the duty and sacrifice of a soldier is to his country and to the people he has sworn to protect and the constitution and flag he has sworn to defend. and i am thankful for the commitment and sacrifice of people like you ED. but my thanks is overshadowed by my disgust at the manner in which frontline soldiers are treated with disrespect by their own government, as pawns in petty geopolitical power gains. I am disgusted that their love for their country is exploited and manipulated by those who hold power over them.

this is why I believe, philosophically at least, that a soldiers commitment in an ideal world would be to these, in order of importance :

Constitution and Flag
People
Assembly (Congress or Parliament)
Commander in Chief

when a government goes to war on false pretenses, for an immoral agenda, or over values which are not in keeping with the constitution, it is the MORAL duty of a soldier to say "Yes, I signed on the dotted line out of love and commitment to my country, and today I will honour that commitment to protect the freedom of others by sacrificing mine. I will sit in prison before I dispatch orders to do my country and my people dishonour."

PS. those pictures you posted are quite beautiful. they show truth : that soldiers are human beings like any of us. they need our protection just as much as we need theirs, without it they will continue to be exploited in such a shameless manner.

anabolic frolic

for certain. before the last election I visited each website of the 4 major party's candidates for my riding and got clear on their stand on each issue. Before the last election for example I wouldn't have voted for anyone who was against gay marriage. Less important now since it's a done deal.

That's where I don't understand how a proportional representation model would work. Who would assign which MPs get the job?

Everybodies_Daddy

It's nice to know that the commitment is appreciated by young people today as well.

The soldier does have the responsibility not to carry out orders he or she feels are not lawful commands, however the order to deploy, orders to attack, defend, patrol, whatever, they are all lawful commands, and to not follow them constitutes a charge somewhere in the spectrum of dereliction of duty to cowardice - the penalty ranges from imprisonment without pay, to dishonourable discharge, to death.

If a soldier is ordered to violate the laws of armed conflict or their rules of engagement, that is an unlawful command, and it's the responsibility of the soldier to refuse to on those grounds.

I don't expect it to be understood by someone who has not served in the military, as it's a totally foreign mindset to the outside world.

The individual soldier does not have the means or the opportunity to make his or her stand. The MORAL duty lies instead with the generals and the politicians to use their soldiers in an honourable and upright way.

If a Private goes to jail, it's just another day in the army. If a General goes to jail, it's news.

MCED

Snuffy

I'm not disagreeing with that. I fear the situation would be worse with a pullout.

mintjellie

oh, i do understand that thats how it is in this world ED. i simply feel that thats not how it should be, ideally speaking.

i think that history has shown time and again that your the ethics of your ordinary front line grunts are usually far better than those of the people who command them.

and I was, in the end, speaking of moral duty as a human being, as opposed to the professional duty as a soldier.

as a wise man once said "One day they'll throw a war for us and no one will come." Imagine what would happen if half the army chose to go to prison instead of do dishonour to their flag, constitution, and assembly because their commander in chief was making his case for it on false pretenses.

mintjellie

i would also argue that when the case for war is made on false pretenses, and when the commander in chief has to lie to congress and to the international community to do so, that the orders to deploy, attack, and control are not lawful.

then again, i also believe politicians who lie to the people to manufacture consent for war should be put in prison for life. i also think politicians that have been proven to have made misuse of the publics tax money should be thrown in prison for life as well. no parole either.

Everybodies_Daddy

The state would fall. End of story.

Windmills anyone?

MCED

astralkid

Lovely pics, MC ED,

My turn:


" Hearts and Minds-"


"Every day, reality!"



A young Iraqi girl crying after her father AND mother were shot by US soldiers...




This war is amoral and it needs to stop. Now! Get the hell out and Western nations need to stop interfering in the natural development of other countries because of their views of democracy, capitalism and so on which is actually nothing more than white supermacy in disguise.

If you support the war in Iraq or want the US to remain ur just supporting the continuation of this genocide.

By the way, the whole "I was a soldier, just following orders" did not work for the Nazis, nor should it for you or any other soldier.

I'm done with you and this thread.

Everybodies_Daddy

1. Nowhere did I say I support the war in Iraq. I support the soldiers who are forced to fight it.

2. Yeah, because every German soldier was a Nazi, and proliferated the genocide, right? Let's not forget that the places where the extermination of Jews was the most complete were in the outlying, conquered countries - France, Holland, Yugoslavia, Poland...

Way to pull a Nazi reference in though... I'm surprised it took three pages to do it.

MCED

mintjellie

man this thread is so far off topic

__________________
huh? what?

Snuffy

And on that note, at least Harper has finally brought up the issue:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/serv...alDecision2006/

I just wish that the rest of the Conservative platform wasn't so... ugh.

mintjellie

that is the worst possible idea i could think of.

yeah. lets give one province special powers on the international stage that no other province enjoys. go federalism!

mintjellie

there needs to be a "Rest of Canada" party for all those people like me who think that Quebec is made up whiny bitches we'd be better off without.