Jay Kerr

" I have recently checked in on several drum'n'bass parties and house parties, however, I have not yet taken the opportunity to attend either a hardcore or trance event. Not that I am not interested in these genres of music just there are so many events going on it is difficult to include all in my schedule.

At least, with Hullabaloo events turning to smaller events it will give many people a chance to interact with others and unite for future parties to come.

Sometimes having smaller parties are better for meeting people as in this case. Then rebounding with a mega party for those of all ages who enjoy the traditional hardcore big venues.

I have read the article Chris (Anabolic Frolic) had written and it is unfortunate there is not much of a selection in hosting of larger scaled parties.

However with the supporters willingness of continuous support I am almost certain something can be arranged in the sense of reviving the underground scene.

I have noticed each event had become more commercialized with the media and it has deteriated the interest of some supporters that created this scene.

I believe advertising should be more discreet using word-of-mouth for particular events. Keeping things on the down-low is what "underground" stands for.

The people that are in this for the wrong reasons are attending for the drugs. The music and meeting peeps is what you should be purchasing your tickets for.

The underground will uprise again - we have the partiers we just need the quality promoters who are not just in this for the profit!"

peace

HEATER

First off I want to thank Anabolic for everything he does for us. I just finished reading the whole post (which took a long tiime) All that stress and money on the line and to know before you start odds are you won't make any money.

I've been to like 7 hulla events (everyone since Ohh Crikey) and have always had the most fun. But oh do I miss the big hulla's I mean I like the opra house but its basiclly the only venue I've been to in months.

I am a firm beliver in you get what you pay for

Chris CHARGE A LITTLE MORE FOR YOUR PARTIES EVERYONE SHOULD BENEFIT 15 DOLLARS ISNT ALOT OF MONEY IF YOU REALLY WANT TO GO IT CAN BE SAVED

Hullabaloo's! are world class and we only have you to thank for them ist about time we gave a little back to you. You deserve to make money for what you do

Now how about that big bad Happyfuckinhullaballo new years?
<just dreaming but would definatley spend alot of money for a hulla new year


What is that new venue "school" like I know it got used a couple times in the early fall just an option I have never been there
anyone else?


HEATER OUT

*sExsiE bonKa*

if u tell me a month or two in advance, then i can start saving the money so i can pay $$$ for the ticket....thats how i do it...i have to know that
a) i'll be getting paid the thursaday b4 the partiE
b) the venue...cause certain venues bring back memories of being jumped and i cant get over the feeling of not being able to go into the bathroom
c) if its a PARTIe i reeeeeeeally have to be at i can mooch

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Nightmare Prod

ok i dont know how we could get away with doubling our ticket prices, the reason why i say this is cause the scene is pretty much a younger crowd and the 19+ the people who could afford $40 have gone away.

i know when i was 14 even 16 i couldnt afford $40 for a ticket and i make more money then most cause i always have been working.

Dj's charge way to much anyways i meen for a local with some kinda following $200-$900 for a 1 hr set is reticulous. i rather make less cash and have more people there with smiles on their faces then make more with people wasting all their money on these events.

for our halloween party we charged $40 for door price our cost for that party wasnt 74k mind you but it wasnt 40k either.

this could work if all companies agree on doing the raise and arnt just raiseing the ticket prices they are raising the quailty of the event as well both visually, mentally and physically.

there isnt a party today that has been thrown that i would pay $50 to go to unless i am paying at the door.

I just dont think it will fly.

although there are case's where the party cost $75k your break even point is approx 2900 ppl then yes you would need to raise the cost but, will that kill you in the end by people boycotting it? look at nye 2000 life force party i think the price was their down fall for that party and it probroally cost an arm and a leg to throw.

just my 2 cents

peace,
toys

oh the reason why os/2 throws so many parties a year and can stay in business doing it is because he gots the best protion staff lol

Nuss

Well first I don't see how rasing the price of a Hulla from $30 - $40 is doubling the price?

I also find it hard to beleive that GTA kids can't afford that price when pretty much everywhere else in the world charges about $40 CAN.

Again I'll reiterate what has been said on this thread already, Toronto local DJ's are underpaid (as compaired to locals in other parts of the world). We also have the hotbed of hardcore in North America, if not the world (but thats an arguement for another time), and we don't even pay for it.

Bottom line is either we pay the money or the parties won't happen and that would be very bad.

*sExsiE bonKa*

it wouldnt be very bad...................






IT WOULD COMPLETELY BLOW!!!!!!!!!

Alison

People will Pay....People will Party...The scene shall survive!!!

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AGROculture

Due to Vancouver legislation our parties are screwed

I won't even mention the absolute lack of legal (and non-legal) venues but

$75 000 for a party your size wouldn't be a problem out here, instead it would be welcomed

The budget for Spooky 6 was at $250 000, yet the venue is only allowed 5000 people, Its gonna cost more for the new Years show.

Tix started at $50.00 and went to $85.00
$100 at the door

This isn't because of greedy promoters either, The cities fucked out here. Even the smaller 1000 person parties are over $30 000 to produce. They're overpricing us with Policing, and such.
The venue owners are also capitalizing on the market

Knowing that there's little options now days
Riverside is going for $8000 with a small capacity
The PNE is goin for around $125 000

sheesh

so I guess what I'm trying to say is that....I wish people out here were complaining about paying $40.00 for a party.

Instead people rush out to get the cheap $40.00 tix

On Top of that Toronto gets the sickest line-ups!!
Consider yourselves lucky

See ya there this summer

peace

AGROout

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- twitch -

I really don't think $200 is asking too much... I think some djs end up being underpaid. I mean.. considering how much a rave promotion company can/used to make, a dj has a big contribution to the night.

I don't think it's fare for djs to get underpaid.
They deserve it.

Cheers
Nick

aphex

DJs are overpaid. Period. So far the best DJs I've come across are those who are willing to spin for the sake of the event and/or music.

I throw events as close as possible to the break even point, or, in some cases I fund them out of my pocket just so that people can have an event to attend.

However, I find it hard sometimes to pay $400 - $500 (plus expenses in some cases) to a Toronto, Ottawa, or Montreal DJ for less than two hours work. Especially when I don't make any cash from the event itself, or donate whatever small amount is left over to charity. <laughs bitterly> I remember having one local DJ who I reluctantly agreed to pay $250 for an end of night set come back and complain after I had paid him because I counted the cash five bucks short -- I almost lost it.

Look at it realistically. For many people in the business, DJing and promoting are hobbies. Very... (excuse me) *extremely* few people have the ability or the luck to turn it into a full time gig.

University educated professionals rarely make the hourly rate that even lower-demand DJs can command. Can you imagine the backlash and bitterness that would occur if promoters started paying their DJs minimum wage? Or even $15/hour? <laughs again, humorously>

I made that case recently to a management agency that wanted $1200 plus expenses for two 416 performers, each spinning an hour and a half set. I simply said that I felt it wasn't fair to charge a small town promoter more than I would pay for a doctor or a lawyer. If I even got paid $100/hr for all the time I spent putting events together, I could successfully retire in my early twenties.

In the end I don't want to come across as an ass, because I am genuinely not, but fucking suck it up. I understand that records need to be bought, and gear maintained, however at the end of the night you're getting paid (well) to do something that is enjoyable and fun.

Take care,
Andrew -//-- Dodeca
[shadowdance.productions.guelph]

- twitch -

^^ Well.. it all depends on how you look at it.

I've played MANY parties for free or next to nothing, just because I know that if I didn't then the party probably wouldn't happen.
But if you look at our neighboors down south you'll notice that they pay djs double what we pay ours.

DJing is fo' sure a hobby, as I'm sure it is the same with most Toronto DJs, I have spent WAY more money on records then I have made. I might have made 1/6th of the money back that I've spent on vinyl.
NOW out of town djs that charge $4000, or more is something you should complain about.

Most headliners from Europe are charging $3000, and thanx to our un-knowledged city they aren't even known here and therefore don't draw. So it's basically not worth it to bring in GOOD talent that have not been here before.

Nuss

Compairing how much a DJ makes an hour to pretty much any any other prefession is insane. A DJ is only going to work maybe 6 hours a week, so in that time period he\she has to maximize the payout. So look at what soemone makes a year if you are going to do an unbiased analysis.

Aphex you also make it sound as if DJ do no work outside of the events themselves. For every minute a DJ is on stage he\she spends probally eight times that working off stage.

Let me break it down to you another way, if you were to pay me as a DJ $400 for a set. Personally I get about ten records a week (which is probally very low compaired to others) and they cost about $17.50 per record. So there is $175. Plus if I had to drive to Guelph (based on the signature) from Toronto (from your post), don't own a car would have to rent one, plus gas, so there is another $80. Even if I didn't have to rent a car, this would be the cost to own, operate and insure the car for business purposes. So now I am making $145 for a nights work. Since you like the per hour thing, I would have to drive to and from Toronto and then sit around waiting for my set and put in some time afterwards, lets say everything takes 5 hours. So I am making $29 an hour, which is about the same a mid-level manager in a company.

The bottom line is that DJs make or break raves, so that gets reflected in their paycheck. If you are doing a small rave with a local lineup, your venue is probally going to cost more than the talent.

aphex

<laughs and shrugs>

Regardless, $29/hour is still more than almost anyone reading this makes.

I am not going to argue. You are entitled to your opinion, which I do respect, and I will not attempt to change that.

However, I will correct you -- it is not the DJ who makes or breaks the party. It is the people who do (or don't) attend. I would like to see how much pay any performer could negotiate while spinning to an empty room. It is a matter of demand, egos, and capitalism at its finest. There are few local DJs who could demand large sums of cash ten years ago and not get laughed from the scene.

<sighs nostalgically>

I apologize. I am genuinely not trying to pit myself against you, Twitch. I am merely lashing out bitterly against the forces which have in recent years been contributing to the economic inflation within this scene of ours. I long for the old days when no one knew what the word "rave" meant, and when my innocence to the politics of it all was intact.

Take care,
Andrew -//-- Dodeca

Nuss

I am not trying to start a fight here (read flamewar), and also think that you are entitled to your opinion as well. However I think this something that needs to be discussed for the survival of the scene.

Ok ultimately, yes the reason party does well is based on the number of people that come through the door. The thing is the reason people come through the door is to hear the DJs you have hired; no good DJs, no ravers. I shouldn't say no ravers, but certainly fewer.

As for economic inflation, that is just a fact of life.

As for the fact that $29/h is more than most people on this board make that is true, but most of the people on this board are high school or university students. I also would think that most full time employess work more than 5 hours a week.

aphex

<shrugs>

<pops a candy into his mouth>

Yeah, agreed. Good DJs are essential to focussing the vibe of a party.

You will agree, though, that the exponential inflation of DJ wages over the last decade has been a contributing factor of rising ticket prices, right?

Nuss

Sure I'll agree that DJs have contributed to price increases. But there are other factors as well that have increased in price. Venues, increased security, increased medical supervision and city permits (where applicable) have all caused an inflation in the ticket price.

- twitch -

^^ that's what I brought up something like 2 pages ago...

Prices for venues have pretty much doubled in a short little while.
THAT's the difference from $4000 to $8000!!!

Move~Your~Stuff

When I worked on Quincy Jones Tribute with Joan Tasoni productions and Insight I got to see a great place to hold a two room party.


The Liberty Fair grounds.

The venue approximately holds 4500 people; knowing hulla 3000 people could fit in their nicely, with plenty of space to sit down (clean floors) or dance.

The two studios can be completely seperate Rooms, with the entrance walkway as sort of as a Chill space, both rooms are practicly sound proof...so that area could be a quiet space.

I know the rentals for us to use the location was well over 2000 dollars and that was just because we reserved times for rehearsels and such...
I really dont know how much it could be for a 9 hour "production"

One drawback of this venue. Maybe that there is a restaurant Banquet hall in the place...And even though the space can be conveniently closed off you may have to get a couple security personel to stay there all night.

There is plenty of parking at this place because it is at the EX right next to the medieval times building...well pretty close

The studio has lighting and a sound sytem. The quality is reletivly good.

What I could do. If you can visuallize this...Is get a couple of projectors and have them shine on the white walls with hulla stills and short hulla clips. And of coarse the random Eye candy.

This event if Advertised long enough and with the right pitch will certainly pack the place...I see no problem in announcing the venue.
And charging 30 dollars for tickets...and 60 at the door. I know hulla has had the rep of not selling tix at the door...But theres nothing wrong with that if this will be something of great value.

Give people a little bit of what they want and they will remember you for it. FORE EVERLAND and the FUNTOPIAS for example.

faierydancer

^^ Interesting Idea..

Question for you:
Where did you move from?

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anabolic frolic

Setting a ticket price is an easy equation of

$Budget / Estimated attendance = $ticket price

You have to work around the advanced price, and the door walkups can't be anticipated. and in hullas case, in the old days we used to sell out completely in advance and I always thought it was crooked to "hold back" tickets for the door to sell at a higher price. The other thing is I didn't want 2000 people showing up at the door when we only had 500 tickets available.

Thanks for the suggestions Move-Your-Stuff, but I swore a long time ago that I would never be the first promoter to use a space for a rave ever again. Waaaaaay too much trouble you can't anticipate, plus if the management isn't totally behind you it can make your life hell. After throwing 25 events I just can't go through all that crap again. I would have to wait until it was successfully used a couple of times and see from there.

As of today, I have to say that the prospects for a large hulla aren't very good. I would say about 75% of my patrons would support a higher ticket price, but to potentially lose 25% who wouldn't (and to the shrinkage of the scene itself) the risk is too great to go for it. Even at a $40 price, we would still need 2200 people to break even. I would need to operate at a break even of 1700 or so to be comfortable. It'll be over a year soon since our last big party, and it would be all that much harder to get large numbers to come out.

We're not the only promoter having to face these problems, of course. Most however have packed it in. I'm just thankful that we've been able to modify the Hulla format and been able to adapt and survice in this current climate. As long as we have your support with that we will continue to see more Hullas.

KarmicKande

i had a big post all typed up... but its all already been said.

but i have a point:
dont forget... there are a LOT of hullaravers who DONT post on this site. how can these ravers hear the news that hulla needs help?

perhaps, at make believe a survey should be done. im sure you'd get a very healthy response. and, then you could get some numbers to work with. i'd be more than willing to help out any way i can. seriously... pm me.

what i would like to know... is whats being done NOW in the hullabaloo format, to keep it alive?

have there been any changes to ensure that SOMEDAY there will be a triumphant return of a BIG party? and it WILL be triumphant. well worth the wait, let me tell you.

changes need to be made now...

frolic: whats being done?

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anabolic frolic

See, the problem is just the big numbers we're playing with. I don't doubt that at Make Believe if we polled the crowd we would get a 95% approval or something, the problem is we would need over 3 times the attendance than what we see at the Opera House. So that's going to require the support of the entire scene, not just the diehard hulla ravers.

I know for certain that if we threw a large scale hulla we WOULD get a lot of people, but if we pulled in approx 1700 people say, and our break even was 2200, that's a loss of $20 000 and I would be permanently out of business. Everyone who went would have had a fantastic time, and I'd get lots of "thanks for not overcrowding" posts, but the problem is we're talking about a huge amount of money and a huge amount of risk.

Unless someone who is reading this wants to bankroll the entire operation and take the risk onto their own hands I don't see how anything will change. I don't think I'll be getting any takers, because no one in their right mind would invest $75 000 and hope to break even. To me it's more important to throw more realistic events and at least see those continue.

anabolic frolic

Bump.

Interesting read, with over a year that has passed since it was first posted.

DynamicHalfDuo

Thanks for bumping this, I hadn't read it before and it's interesting material.

Maybe you could get Pepsi to sponsor a Hulla and front $75,000 or so...they do it all the time for schools.

Yeah yeah...I'm an American... we just ask corporations for money when we need it.

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